(no subject)

[lollardfish]

Can anyone more knowledgeable than I point out any examples of the Vilification Tennis show doing productive social satire - that is, making fun of something in order to demonstrate its impropriety or nonsensical nature?

I'm seeing excuses that I shouldn't be offended at their upcoming show because it's productive social satire.

I think it's just an excuse and the show isn't about satire, it's about getting laughs by being as mean as possible. They are really good at it. They get a lot of laughs. I think they're kidding themselves about the satire, but I'm not that familiar with their shows.

Comments

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

I read it and couldn't come up with any examples. I'd love to hear some. Right now, it looks to me like you are just making excuses for causing pain to people like me and my wife and for perpetuating the belief that it is appropriate and comical to make fun of people who, by definition, cannot defend themselves and are frequently seen as lesser humans on account of their disabilities. That's what I see.

But I believe satire can be extremely effective at undermining social ills, and I'd like to hear how Vill does that.

[mamajenzie.livejournal.com]

I never promised examples. I stated that the post was made for me and my thoughts. It wasn't actually made for you, sweetie.

That being said, I would love to hear exactly how we are picking on and making fun of the handicapped. The only thing you have to base your entire argument off of is the title "Going Full R____", which is a very obvious play off of Tropic Thunder. So very obvious that even I, the pop culture inept, got it. The use of that reference was in performers being hindered at being able to fully represent one with special needs. It's social commentary that I believe is rather accurate, and sadly shows a misrepresentation in Hollywood. Unless you feel Forrest Gump is representational.

All that being said, the show itself can often be satirical. It can also be ironical and sarcastic. For my part, I work best at word play. Were I in the show, I could tell you three insults I would definitely use in the show.

-You're so stupid, you thought a paraplegic was a step below lawyer.
-You're so stupid, you thought Downs was the opposite of Ups.
-You're so stupid, you thought retard was a noun.

If you are looking to me for a very specific example of what the show is going to be, I honestly can't help you. I'm not in this show- I was not a part of the planning, I did not help with any of it.

In fact, a part of me is having difficulty with the thought that you might know what's going to happen in the show better than I do. I mean, you already know it's going to hurt children. I had no idea.

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

In your post, you said that the show raises awareness. Others have suggested that the show presents effective satire. I requested examples. My experience with the show is limited, but did not feel that the show either raised awareness or presented satire (neither does Mark, above).

I got the reference. There was, for the record, significant outcry in the Down syndrome community about the movie, although I was not a part of it. I actually thought that the movie's use of the phrase was, as you say, an attempt at satire of Hollywood's portrayal of the disabled, though not actually particularly funny (it seemed to be playing for laughs by using the word retard repeatedly).

I do not understand how Vill does anything like that and requested examples. That's all.

I like that third joke. It's clever.

I'll address other points in a second post as I like to keep thought separated on lj as it works better.

[(Anonymous)]

"but did not feel that the show either raised awareness or presented satire (neither does Mark, above)."
Easy there, I said nothing of the sort.
I said my job is to make people laugh, not contemplate the meaning of life.
Please do not put words in my mouth.

The closest example of anything i have done that may fit your criteria would be the Feb show. Our show was "A Salute to Black History Month".
I did the show in black face.
I did it for 2 reasons.
1- its funny
2- The easiest way to destroy someones hatred for anything in specific is to make fun of the way they think. (Ask Mel Brooks how he feels about making fun of Hitler)
I did not do it to be mean, hurtful, racist, or anything even close to that. I did it to be funny.

Also I have to agree with Jen in pointing out something to you and the others that are screaming and yelling about the upcoming show. Have you seen it yet? Was it hurtful? Was it mean spirited? i would suggest to you and the others that are up in arms with pitchforks in hand to wait and see.
If it is then by all means feels free to be a critic and publicly admonish the cast.

Mark L

P.S. I am also not doing the Nov show.

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

How did insulting other people in blackface help destroy hatred?

Brooks did fantastic satire.

I am not complaining about the show. I am complaining about the publicity, title, and articulation of the theme. It does enough damage.

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

Here's a more direct question, Mark. You and my wife are friends. You met my son this summer; he giggled at you in the cage. The title/theme of this show made my wife weep with anger and sadness.

Do you care?

If you don't, so be it.

[(Anonymous)]

Do I care? No, not really. I do not let words cause me pain.

I would empathize, if say your wife and your self had been out front of the movie theater picketing Tropic Thunder in 2008. Maybe if you guys had written Ben Stiller or the movie studio. BUT as you said when the other groups got up in arms you didn't get involved.
The term is SO OBVIOUSLY taken from a movie and worse yet, a long conversation and side plot in said movie. If you never said or did anything when it was in a movie why exactly should I care now that the phrase is being used in a production put on by 15 people in Minneapolis to an audience of 80? If one word offends you and your wife to the point of tears then I would say you are in for a very long and painful life.

My 8 year old daughter has cancer. Leukemia to be exact. I understand what it is like to be protective for your child.
Want to know why your son giggled at me this summer? It's because I am funny.

Mark L

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

I know about your daughter. Her grandparents are good friends of mine. I've been thinking about her since you started posting.

The pain of this is that, unlike Tropic Thunder, it's coming from inside my wife's long-term core community. To see people who she's known for so long entirely blind to our situation is a painful betrayal, even though unintentional.

[buttonlass.livejournal.com]

Hello Mark. I knew your answer to the question and wish I had been around earlier for this chat.

I didn't see this movie because I was told it used the r-word and did in fact write a letter complaining about it to the paper. I cringe to think how incoherent it must have been given my lack of practice writing such things, but I tried.

Believe me when I say I don't expect you to care. I have ceased to wonder or care if other people think I'm uptight or too delicate or deluded on this subject.

I'm hoping to make the world slightly nicer for my son. If over the space of his life I can explain one less time why some jerk called him a name and make my sons life a little more pleasant I will be pleased.

I have stopped complaining about this unless it's right in front of me. I've moved on to bigger fish.

[mamajenzie.livejournal.com]

I'm repeating part of my blog. I don't like doing so, but you have stated that I made comment about raising awareness through the show. Like I have said, I should not be seen as the end all be all of vilification. For that matter, neither should Mark. The only person that can truly represent Vilification Tennis is Tim, the "guy in charge."

The one insult I would have loved to have thrown was "you're so stupid, you thought retard was a noun" and then looked to see who got it. And then maybe those that didn't would ask. I have always been a fan of increasing awareness through wordplay, satire, sarcasm, and irony.

Look! I even included the insult you liked. :)

And the reason you liked it was because you "got" the joke. You *know*. Someone who didn't get the joke wouldn't *know.* If they knew, they'd get the joke, whether they liked it or not.

In not getting it, my hope would be that they would ask someone. At the very least, they would know they don't know. And that is raising awareness. Not an in your face, do or die raise of awareness. Just a slight bump in that there is something else out there. What else do you call awareness?

And m entire post was about how MY awareness was raised but this show that hasn't even happened yet, having to focus on what is and isn't funny about the topic presented. So there's two.

My post was about how we didn't talk about the elephant in the room growing up, and how little I knew because of that. Just by talking about the subject, one raises awareness. So have a third.

And Mark is right about one thing. The focus of the show is on being funny. We are billed as an offensive show, but the goal isn't to offend. It's to be funny. And there is nothing funny about insulting someone for the sake of being offensive. I would never go up to you and call you a r_____ daddy (hell, I wouldn't do it to someone I didn't like). That is not funny.

There is a part of me that has always found you to be a bit difficult. You haven't been with me thus far, and I feel it's led to some rather productive sharing, if not acceptance.

But I do need to point out that I have heard that many of our mutual friends have been hurt by direct attacks from you to them for being in the show, going to the show, or supporting the show, even when you haven't been able to give examples of what has been directly hurtful or why. You have resorted to name calling. You have been directly hurtful to people you feel are being indirectly hurtful to you and those you love.

It's hypocritical, and I feel it should be beneath you. I know you get frustrated when you feel attacked or defensive, but it's not okay behavior, and certainly does not add credence to your case.

I was going to end there, but your follow up comment just popped up, so I will respond to that as well (I hate doing that multiple threads thing)...

Huh. Honestly, the only further response I have to that is that yeah, it is kind of abstract. If you can't feel the sarcasm in that tag, I have no way of convincing you otherwise.

And I think that is where I'm going to have to end. I am now a couple hours behind on my design work and really need to get back to it. I wanted to take the moment to comment on here, because I do think fondly of you, and I do care that you are hurting. I just think much of the offence that you are seeing simply isn't there.

Take care, hon.

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

I am difficult. I try not to be. But I get abrasive and angry, especially when people attack those dear to me. I only became aware of this show when my wife was in tears and I responded with a post, friends locked, that attacked the event without naming any names.I feel that was pretty restrained under the circumstances. Moreover, I later sent out emails apologizing for not contacting individuals directly. I'm not frustrated. I'm angry. I'm still angry.

I agree that the focus of the show is being funny. That's what I've been saying. But when I have expressed my feelings about this particular show's title and theme, I have been told, "it's satire." I still don't see it.

I do take your points about awareness in your experience. That all makes a lot of sense to me. I suspect everyone involved in this issue will, at least, think about it before they use the word retard pejoratively in this type of context. They may do it anyway. They may mutter, "fuck that asshole Lollardfish" under their breath. They may mutter, "Fuck politically-correct bullshit." Maybe they'll self-censor just to keep me from ranting at them, not through any acceptance of my perspective. I dunno. But they'll think about it for an extra second or two, and that pleases me. I'm going to be spending a good part of my life fighting to make the world a better place for my son, and if fewer people like me for it, I can live with that, though I'll regret it.

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

For the second point - my contention has nothing to do with the show. I would not go to such a show. If I ended up at one accidentally, I would leave. But I believe that anyone going to a Vilification Tennis show checks their outrage and offense at the door.

I believe that to participate in, attend, or even just condone the existence of a comedy show called "Going Full Retard:- a Vilification Tennis Salute to the Handicapped. Because they have the ADA and we don't" is to help perpetuate the notion that it is appropriate and harmless to mock and marginalize the disabled on account of their disabilities. Moreover, the disabled are, by definition, often unable to defend themselves, and here they are rendered as targets.

This is a little bit abstract, though I believe it. There's also, I'm told (I haven't read it. I could, if it mattered), research into the word "retard" as an insult-phrase and the consequences of exposure to that word for people (especially teens) who have intellectual disabilities. It's devastating on them.

[buttonlass.livejournal.com]

The only thing you have to base your entire argument off of is the title "Going Full R____", which is a very obvious play off of Tropic Thunder. So very obvious that even I, the pop culture inept, got it.

I hate dealing with this further but here I am.

Funny thing about Tropic Thunder, I never saw it. Most of the people I talk to in a week didn't see it. You know why? Because it used the word ret@rd and we were warned, none of us wanted to see it on that basis. I had no idea the title of the upcoming show was a play on that until after I was upset. It may be common knowledge to you but you live in a different subculture than we do.

[mamajenzie.livejournal.com]

Ah, lady. I haven't seen it either. Which is why it was surprising to me that I understood the reference. I don't watch TV. I see incredibly few movies. I don't listen to the radio, preferring my classical music to the loud noise those kids are into nowadays. I often get teased for my lack of understanding of very basic pop culture references.

I do live in a different subculture, it's true. Many more people saw the movie than didn't, and I am not a part of that group. But you are right that I got the reference while you didn't. It raises an interesting question: how many people have to get it and how many don't before one can set a reasonable expectation that a reference has saturated enough of the mainstream to use in a satirical way?

I don't have an answer to that. But I did want to explain my surprise at getting the reference and how difficult a task that is.

[buttonlass.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair apparently my husband got it too. Maybe I'm just clueless.:)

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

Not at all. I didn't get it, and still don't. Nor do I watch TV, or see many movies, and certainly not first-run movies. I listen to non-commercial radio all the time. I am never teased for my lack of understanding of very basic pop culture references.

It doesn't make sense to say that "many more people saw the movie than didn't." There's no way that more than 50% of people saw this movie.

K.

[mamajenzie.livejournal.com]

Clueless is not always a bad thing. Since that's normally my place in the pop culture food chain, I'd like to think I have good company.

[guppiecat]

For what it's worth, I also didn't catch the reference at all.

Which, really, is the problem with reference-based humor. When it hits, it's hilarious... but when it doesn't it's either incomprehensible or completely misinterpret-able.

[jmanna.livejournal.com]

A moment to explain the reference (as I see it at least): In the movie, actors and the movie industry are portrayed as ridiculous caricatures of reality. One of the characters is a white Australian who has pigment therapy done to make himself look black so he can play a black character. THe point of the character is to mock the stupidity of Hollywood in thinking this guy was some kind of brilliant method actor instead of hiring a skilled black actor. The movie pokes fun at Hollywood's latent racism, homophobia bigotry, etc. Where Hollywood names (stars, directors and executives) parade around in fancy clothes at banquets to raise money for causes while at the same time thinking there is nothing wrong (perhaps even laudable) about a white guy playing a black man instead of hiring actors of color.

The scene in particular specifically references the numerous instances where actors have portrayed people with disabilities and how ridiculously Hollywood awards those actors that don't make people uncomfortable by going 'Full (I'll leave the phrase out because I know it upsets you)'. It is entirely a commentary on how Hollywood pats itself on the back about being worldly and aware while still punishing those that 'go to far' into the realm of 'not palatable'.

Mind you this is all mixed in with a movie that has cross dressing and fart jokes but there it is.

Not saying the word usage shouldn't upset you, just explaining the reference.

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

Because it's probably lost in the mega-comments. Here's what my favorite father of a boy with down syndrome/english professor/liberal blogger had to say:

"(Extended aside: before anybody asks me about Tropic Thunder: strange as it may sound, I actually kind of appreciate how the movie was trying to skewer the Rain Man - I Am Sam - Radio representation of intellectual disability. It did so in a ham-handed and aggressively unfunny way, but then, it was a ham-handed and aggressively unfunny movie, though not quite so aggressively unfunny as Burn After Reading. My sense is that it was trying to do for Vietnam War flicks what Galaxy Quest did for SF: to wit, parade and lampoon the cheesy, well-worn tropes of the genre and then work those tropes back into the script for a clever and meta- closing sequence. Except that Tropic Thunder forgot about the “clever” part and the “funny” part.) "

I think that says it pretty well. Full link (http://www.michaelberube.com/index.php/weblog/comments/1257/).

[jmanna.livejournal.com]

Yup. Tropic Thunder was...not funny in my book. But I don't enjoy that over the top comedy stuff. I hate most of Will Ferrel's stuff for the same reasons.