(no subject)

[lollardfish]

There's a post out there today of a "friend" (not someone I actually know that well) who has been out of touch with LJ.

He's asking for updates because, "If there's something you've been assuming I know because you wrote about it on LJ and in the past I've reliably read your LJ, you might want to point it out to me. Alternately, you can just regard me as the retard in the corner who never knows what's going on."

I find this metaphor infuriating and offensive, although I know that as with most such things he means nothing by it. What's the best response? Ignore? Post something publicly in comments? Send a private email? Write an LJ post of my own about how offensive I find it and hope someone reads it?

What do you think?

Edit - I posted what I hope was both a polite and firm comment.

Comments

[txanne.livejournal.com]

That made me twitch too, but I don't know him well enough to call him on it. I'd say send a private email, but I don't know if he reads emails from relative strangers--so in this one case, I'd put something in the comments.

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

I'm glad to know it made you twitch too. I am obviously more sensitive than others.

[rani23.livejournal.com]

Private email would be my vote.

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

The question is whether he reads it. He must get a lot of mail ... I've jammed with this person and exchanged emails with him in the past, but only when I've been on his radar.

And then there's the corrective issue - if I post publicly in comments, others might read them and think about how they talk.

I dunno.

[cari-rose.livejournal.com]

I would let him know, politely but firmly.

[davidschroth.livejournal.com]

What do you think?

I think you should wait at least 24 hours before doing anything. It's possible that you won't feel so strongly about it after a cooling off period.

My own take is you'll still feel strongly about it after waiting. So, how would you prefer that he phrase things? Draft a sentence that conveys the same/similar meaning, and then write him something along the lines of:

"In your post, you said this. While I don't think you meant any harm by your phrasing, I am not alone in finding such phrasing offensive. Perhaps you would consider saying something along the lines of 'insert your preferred wording here' in the future."

I'd put it in the comments, not because you want to publicly chide the person, but because the potential audience that might benefit is larger.

Mind, it's not clear that I'm in any position to offer useful advice on this subject.

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

i agree about waiting twenty four hours to cool off, but then, were i you, i'd post something along the lines of "my wife, my retard son, and i have been yadayadawhatever. by the way, my son really does have downs, although we don't talk about him or about others as 'retards', and we don't keep him in the corner."

of course, i am not primarily noted for my tact. however, that may shock them into realizing that, you know, he's talking about real people he knows.

[mia-mcdavid.livejournal.com]

I'd go with the private email. You can't rely on him to read your LJ post; he's made that clear already.

[guppiecat]

You can't change people.

Odds are that whatever you do, be it a post or an email, you will not prevent him from mentally classifying certain people as "retards". At best, you may be able to get him to relabel the bucket as something else. I suspect that this would not be the outcome that you are desiring.

If you truly care to fight this battle with him, your best bet is to draw him into a long-term situation where he exposed to people that he is classifying this way and show him that they're not the people he thinks they are. This could be very difficult.

If you choose to fight this battle publicly (which is where I really think you're wanting to go), posting a response to his post would likely not prevent him from thinking of things in this way in the future, nor would it really impact many others except to further widen the gap between the people that think like you and those that do not. A longer-term approach might work better, where you gradually and over time, tell the stories of people who would ordinarily be classified as "retards" and "idiots", and why those classifications are incorrect.

It would take a lot of energy and time, but if you're serious about dealing with the problem, that'd be the way.

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

See, I think he's just being casually thoughtless. I think many offensive comments don't emerge from real racism, or homophobia, or, in this case, casual disregard for the mentally disabled - it comes from thoughtlessness.

[fredcritter.livejournal.com]

Now that I know who we're talking about, I must say that in my opinion he does not "mentally [classify] certain people as 'retards'." I'd guess it more likely that an old phrase from those less-enlightened days fell off his tongue without much thought…just as I once (and sometimes still do when I'm not paying attention) would use the phrase "I've been gypped"; and as some people will say "he wanted too much for it but I jewed him down." I'd also guess that he'd respond less well to a strong rebuke than to a gentle one, but that's actually a whole other issue.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't know anything about the person, and I certainly have no intention of defending rude, inappropriate or insensitive language. However, with that said, I can remember a time when "retard" was considered almost acceptable and often "funny". We know better now, there are so many hurtful words out there, and as a culture, we are slowly starting to "get it". Still, though, in certain age groups, and mind sets, these words are not considered "bad".

I think the appropriate response is measured, as it should be always. Perhaps a reminder to this person that what they said was hurtful, not only to some shadowy non-specific group "out there", but to someone that is a respected friend and/or acquaintance. Reminding them that it is not acceptable in our society today, to use words like that in such a hurtful way. Chances are good that the person doesn't even realize that this is true. The phrase may be conditioned from years of use to meaninglessness for them. As I said, I am not trying to excuse it, and you have more than enough right to be offended, as should we all, but maybe the person just needs a gentle reminder.

There is also the possibility that the person has no social graces, and cannot recognize when insult or injury have been given. I'm sure we all know a few of those. Again, I think, a reminder of the unacceptable language and hurtful nature of the comment would be more appropriate than a full frontal attack. Certainly, posting a response on LJ for all to read may also help to enlighten the others out there who may not realize that it is a problem to use language so indiscriminantly. Maybe a polite email to the person explaining that the word is unacceptable. Then, if the response is still rude or hurtful, more action might be called for.

I think it's always best to assume that someone is just acting ignorantly, and can be educated, rather than to assume malice at the outset.

Just my 2 cents...

[neugotik.livejournal.com]

I try to confront people right in the moment myself - prob. something like "I find that statement offensive" would've come out of me - but then (?) If I don't know someone I might just ignor it rather then tussle sometimes/depends on my mood and how secure I'm feeling at the time. If you can/will see them in person I'd say it in person. If not that then email - with a title that will refer to him/her to catch their attention (your comment the other day at *blank*) something so they want to open it (if they care about you they will).

good luck

anonymous...

[lakeboy-55.livejournal.com]

Grrrr..., that's yet another instance of my posting a comment and having it end up being "anonymous without my intent. Why does it do this in some posts and not others. It's driving me crazy! In some posts I have to enter my username and password, and type in the pictures words to leave a comment, even though I am logged in. What's up with that? It never used to do this. Sorry for the rant.

Just to make it clear, the "anonymous" comment was from me, Lakyboy_55.

Re: anonymous...

[neogrammarian.livejournal.com]

lj's been playing w/me that way the past week or so as well, fwiw.

Re: anonymous...

[guppiecat]

LJ stores your login credentials in a cookie. If you change computers, have your browser set to delete cookies or (as has been happening lately), LJ changes servers on their end, you have to re-login.

You can mitigate this to some extent by clicking the "remember me" checkbox when you login, but really, it's best to look at the login box whenever you first hit your friends page.

[smellingbottle.livejournal.com]

I'd post a polite comment pointing out the general offensiveness of this metaphor. That you have particular reasons for being sensitised to it doesn't invalidate the general point that this is fairly vile thing to say.

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

I did more or less that. Thanks to all for advice.

[ferrousoxide.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you said something. I think that it's one of those things that just come out of people's mouths without them thinking about it *at all*. I know i've said similarly (though, not quite that badly) insensitive. Though i usually realise it immediately and feel like an ass. I'd surely rather have my friends (or even acquaintances) tell me about such verbal idiocy to bring my attention to what i say, rather than keep quiet.

[fredcritter.livejournal.com]

I dunno. Did you ask our friend madtruk what he would do? He's usually so good with these kinds of things…

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

I already posted anyway and will sit on it. I think it was an appropriate comment.

[creidylad.livejournal.com]

I have little constructive to offer as this sort of thing tends to send me off into a screaming irrational fit of recrimination. Some day perhaps I'll be calm enough about it to share the story of a flamewar I got into with someone I've known 22 years who was complaining about funding for 'retards' outpacing funding for 'smart' kids.

Long story short: I find it generally useful to point out calmly to people (when I can manage calm) that taking an adjective and turning it into a noun as a way to refer to people -- and then using it as a pejorative for another group entirely -- is extremely dehumanizing and hard to respond to without hurt.

And at the same time I must admit guilt. It wasn't until a wheelchair-bound friend recently noted on her LJ how insulting the adjective 'lame' was that I even thought about that word and what it really meant, and only a few years ago did I come to realize what the origin of "gyp" was and ditch it from my vocabulary entirely. So the odds are of course that this guy has no idea how insulting he's being... but you already knew that.

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

The real issue, which I did not articulate perhaps all that well, was whether to issue a public hopefully polite comment or send a private email. I ultimately chose the former.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

"Screaming fits" sounds bad for you.

K.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

This effect of perjoration doesn't happen equally in everyone's thinking. For example, I am told that the first four letters of the descriptor "Pakistani" are considered highly offensive in the UK. That happens to ring neutral and inoffensive to my ear.

People will have different standards, whether through different experiences or just ham-handedness. I think it's important to alert them to a more civilized level of kindness, and I think you did a good job here. I certainly need the reminder (not concerning using the word "retard" but in the broader sense of choosing words carefully).

I haven't a clue how any of this might relate to Patrick. I just don't want you to be infuriated, because fury can wreck your whole day.

Kindly,

K.

[lollardfish.livejournal.com]

Fury did, if not wreck, at least throw up significant roadblocks into my day. My anger peaked around 6 and has been settling down since then.